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exkefman
Intermediate Contributor 25+


Joined: 19 Jun 2015
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Location: Cheshire, England

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iso wrote:
snip...

I got good reminder for this when checking results of my Armstrog 621 rebuild here http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=8432

Best Regards

Kimmo


Hi Kimmo,

If you want to buy another good condition 621 (Teak case) then let me know as I have one (in original box) sitting in my attic. Smile
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Tim

(I used to work for KEF from 1988-1995 - you can see my "profile" here: http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/speakertalk/viewtopic.php?t=1706)
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iso
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Joined: 29 Aug 2011
Posts: 215
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim

Thank you for offering this nice amplifier... but I got mine rebuilt and this is enough for Armstrong 600 series now. But if you happen to have Mission Cyrus 2, Rogers A100, Ariston RD11 Superior, Thorens TD125, H/K ST8 or FR64 in good original condition, let me know.

BTW I am waiting arrival of nice Rogers Ravensbourne and Quad FM4.

This site has been quite quiet recently... would it be good idea to increase activity on "List, exchange and buy" forum.

Best Regards

Kimmo

BTW how did you like Armstrong 621?
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exkefman
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Joined: 19 Jun 2015
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Location: Cheshire, England

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iso wrote:
Tim

Thank you for offering this nice amplifier... but I got mine rebuilt and this is enough for Armstrong 600 series now. But if you happen to have Mission Cyrus 2, Rogers A100, Ariston RD11 Superior, Thorens TD125, H/K ST8 or FR64 in good original condition, let me know.


Hi Kimmo,

That's a good list - I can certainly vouch for most of these items:

I used to sell Cyrus 2 (esp with PSX) and the A100 and have always "rated them" - really good, under-valued amps, esp the A100 which IMHO was much better than the A75 Ser 2 !!

I used to own a TD125, first with am SME 3009 Ser 2 F/H and then with an Infinity Black Widow.

And the FR64 was a great arm, esp the FR64FX version...I was working for the FR importer at the time but very few people bought them, as they were so heavy and the trend was for "suspended" turntable chassis, so finding a T/T that could bear the weight of the 64FX was tricky.

The RD11S wasn't very good IIRC - we had build quality issues when I was selling them in the late 1970's/early 1980's...plus the all-conquering Linn got all the press, so it was hard to find a customer who wanted an Ariston.

I never sold any ST8's - we did have a Rabco ST7, and it was great to watch it working, but sonically, not so good.

Quote:
BTW I am waiting arrival of nice Rogers Ravensbourne and Quad FM4.

This site has been quite quiet recently... would it be good idea to increase activity on "List, exchange and buy" forum.

Best Regards

Kimmo

BTW how did you like Armstrong 621?


Sounds like you are building up a nice collection there...

I sold lots of FM4's....they were cute and solid performers, but the only people who bought them had 34's or 44's...they didn't appeal to other types of customers, who also wanted something to "match" their other equipment...so we sold those people Denon TU260L's...!

The Ravensbourne was a simpler product, very similar to the FM2 (which I have!!) - but both needed lots of aerial signal to work well.

I had a choice when I bought my amp (and this was before I got into the industry) - the 621, or an A&R Cambridge A60. In the end I got the 621, as my local dealer didn't sell the A&R....initially I found the 621 to be very good, but over time I found out it's short-comings...it wasn't particularly "warm" or "involving" sound wise...and the MM input could be a bit bright, though at the time I had an M75ED2, so that might be why !!

I later used just the power amp section of the 621, driving it with an early Max Townshend Elite 600C pre-amp, which was far better. Then I got some Meridian 105 mono-blocks to replace the 621 and didn't look back.

So, in fairness, the 621 was a good quality, if not very special amp...but it served me well for a couple of years until my ears became more "educated". Wink
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Tim

(I used to work for KEF from 1988-1995 - you can see my "profile" here: http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/speakertalk/viewtopic.php?t=1706)
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iso
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Joined: 29 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TD125 would probably be best deck of ones I am seeking. Quality was most likely reason for end of Ariston story, but RD11 series do have some historical value and I find it somehow more interesting than LP12. They all are descendants of AR-XA/XB family... I actually now have 1 modified AR-XB and 2 original ones. ST8 do have some improvements over ST8... I suppose it would be pain in the ass when adjustments are needed... but it is mechanical wonder if you look how everything is powered with one motor via several belts, shafts, rollers etc...

FM4 is probably not too good compared to say H/K Citation 15, Revox B760 etc... but I happen to have 34/405 combo and FM4 is perfect for this set up. Ravensbourne I am going to receive is actually late model integrated amplifier, not tuner. I am anxious to see how it performs after rebuild.

I do also find Armstong 621 to be slightly on bright side and maybe a bit warm on LF. However there is surprisingly small amount of HF edginess, maybe this is why I like it so much. I must say that there were strong personal reasons why I bought the amp in the first place. http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=8432 This may be one reason for my feelings about it.

I have recently accepted that absolute performance does not have to be even goal of audio hobby. I do actually have Conrad Johnson Premier 7B http://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/592cj/ which is quite good and rare (only 220 pre amps made between 1988-1995). I have found that working with amps like H/K Citation 11,12,15 or 17, Armstrong 621 or Quad stuff is as much fun... you can only buy maybe 20-30 these amps for price of one Premier 7...

Best Regards

Kimmo
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exkefman
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Joined: 19 Jun 2015
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Location: Cheshire, England

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kimmo,

The TD125 is a great turntable, but it is let down by the original poor turntable mat and the "ringing" platter. the former can be replaced easily, and that can help with the latter, esp if you get a "sorbothane" mat, such as the original Spectra mat, which can be very "clingy" to LP's, but it does work very well.

My TD125 worked really well and despite not having any quartz lock, the speed stability was very good (as you can monitor "through the lens" to the built in stroboscope, which is attached to the underside of the inner platter).

Ariston made some good turntables, but they were not so good, long term, esp with bearing "fit", which was an issue IIRC and eventually the company collapsed, though just the brand name lives on today (like many other British brand names that failed and have been resurrected years later, by new owners: Gale, Cambridge Audio, Lecson, etc). We sold the RD11E (an electronic speed change version) and the RD11S (which was more expensive, and more like a LP12 and with a plain plinth). IIRC, both had square section belts. The "Superieur" came later and used a more "ornate" plinth. Somewhere I've got sales leaflets for the latter.

Yup - the Rabco linear tracking "movement" was a very simple and yet very interesting system to watch, as the belts and rollers worked their magic...and with the back of the arm "catching up" with the headshell end, as the arm moved across the record...

Ah - you mean the Ravensbourne amp - sorry, when you mentioned "nice Rogers Ravensbourne and Quad FM4", I had assumed you meant that *both* were tuners...as Rogers did make a Ravensbourne tuner to match the same named amplifier. Did you know that the Ravensbourne and Ravensbrook were named after local rivers near the factory in South London?

http://www.londonslostrivers.com/river-ravensbourne.html

Your description of the sound of the 621 correlates fairly closely to mine...though in my case, I'm remembering back 30+ years !! I originally used the 621 with a pair of...Tannoy Berkeleys, which had a 15" HPD385A Dual Concentric driver...they sounded great, but the horn tweeter and the "edginess" of the 621 didn't go so well together. Years later, when I was actually selling the A&R A60 amps, I found that it would have been a better match for the Tannoys, than the 621, as it was far smoother, even if the A60 had slightly less power - but then when you have high efficiency Tannoy's who needs lots of power !!

It was funny, when a few years after I sold the Tannoy's that I was employed by KEF to help promote the Uni-Q driver, which was also a "Dual Concentric" type driver....though KEF called theirs "co-incident" - but essentially both were trying to act like "point source" drivers.

The NT25 (1") versions of the Uni-Q always sounded better (to my ears) than the NT19 (3/4") driver. So, I wasn't keen on the C35/C55 and the 101/2 and 102/2 designs...but the C75/C95 and 103/4 and 105/3 (that had NT25's) just sounded sweeter to me...
The NT25s were also a bit more reliable, as initially some NT19's just "fell apart" as there was very little surface area for the glues (that held it together) to actually bond so well...but they got it right after a little while...remember this was all "cutting edge and new technology" at the time...and KEF was at the phase when it was just starting to use cyanoacrylate glues.
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regards
Tim

(I used to work for KEF from 1988-1995 - you can see my "profile" here: http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/speakertalk/viewtopic.php?t=1706)
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proffski
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Joined: 22 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, I am following your discussion and enjoying it as I have a few bits in common with your postings.
However, its getting a bit confusing, could you please pretty please continue your must informative postings here. Audio equipment

Link: http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/speakertalk/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=cb3692ae674679807abe141ae80a7633

With thanks. Smile
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man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
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exkefman
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Joined: 19 Jun 2015
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Location: Cheshire, England

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proffski wrote:
Guys, I am following your discussion and enjoying it as I have a few bits in common with your postings.
However, its getting a bit confusing, could you please pretty please continue your must informative postings here. Audio equipment

Link: http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/speakertalk/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=cb3692ae674679807abe141ae80a7633

With thanks. Smile


Hi,

As an admin on a different phpBB forum, there is actually a function to split a topic and then relocate following threads in a different section. Maybe whoever the "forum admin" is on here can do that to this thread? I'd PM them, but I'm not sure who it is? allanson?
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Tim

(I used to work for KEF from 1988-1995 - you can see my "profile" here: http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/speakertalk/viewtopic.php?t=1706)
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speakerguru
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've split the last part of this thread which had gone off topic. I am allowed to do some admin tasks on some parts of this forum. but please try to keep to one topic per thread.

Start a new thread when necessary rather than just rambling about from topic to topic. I'm not looking for a full time admin job here. Thanks.
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proffski
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good move, thank you.
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speakerguru
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

exkefman wrote:

The NT25s were also a bit more reliable, as initially some NT19's just "fell apart" as there was very little surface area for the glues (that held it together) to actually bond so well...but they got it right after a little while...remember this was all "cutting edge and new technology" at the time...and KEF was at the phase when it was just starting to use cyanoacrylate glues.


This is incorrect. KEF were using ca adhesives to stick rubber surrounds to chassis and voice coils to bextrene cones when I joined in 1975. NT tweeters were mid 80s.

The reason NT19s and NT25s "fell apart" was that Prod. dept. has not set up any humidity booths for the new production lines. CA adhesives do not cure if the humidity is too low. The poor operators were tearing their hair out producing failures when they knew full well what should have been done to fix the problem. I was sent to toubleshoot as I had designed both tweeters.

Any comments on this post should go to the KEF speakers part of the forum. Do not add to this please. I cannot move this.
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exkefman
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Joined: 19 Jun 2015
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Location: Cheshire, England

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speakerguru wrote:
This is incorrect. KEF were using ca adhesives to stick rubber surrounds to chassis and voice coils to bextrene cones when I joined in 1975. NT tweeters were mid 80s.


No probs SG - I bow to your better knowledge on when CA was first used Smile
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Tim

(I used to work for KEF from 1988-1995 - you can see my "profile" here: http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/speakertalk/viewtopic.php?t=1706)
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iso
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim

I actually thought that Rogers named Ravensbourne after Ravensbourne College of Design and Communication... but joining of communication section and change of name has occurred after Rogers designed this amplifier.

As we are now talking on correct forum I like to propose new thread about nice amplifiers made between 60´s to early 90´s. They may have some historical meaning... but not necessarily so. Good, reliable performance is bonus. Good present day availability is must. 1974 John Curl JC2 or Beveridge amplifiers would be nice... but easy to source as original Bugatti camshafts.

Quads have already been discussed here... so is it reasonable to omit them now. So... Tim, if you have any additional ideas... let us know and open new thread.

Best Regards

Kimmo

PS maybe these nice amps should have something different than mainstream amps of their vintage do present
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exkefman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iso wrote:
Tim

I actually thought that Rogers named Ravensbourne after Ravensbourne College of Design and Communication... but joining of communication section and change of name has occurred after Rogers designed this amplifier.


I used to live in South East London, so I had knowledge of the river, before I knew there was amplifier with that name.

Subsequently:

Check out this PDF of the "advert" from 1968 of the Ravensbourne amplifier:

http://www.soccer.mistral.co.uk/books/hifi1.pdf

As you will see, Rogers Developments, were based in Barmeston Road, Catford, (in South East London).

So, then Google "barmeston road, catford" and look at the map....as you'll see, the Ravensbourne river runs at the back of Barmeston Road !!

15-love to me I think !! (Wimbledon starts soon, so please allow me a "tennis score"...!!)

Also: It was quite normal for UK brands to name their products after specific area's or places (rather than "model numbers")... Of course, KEF had the C Series, using some names of "musical terms", such as Chorus, Celeste, Concerto, Cantata. Castle Acoustics used Durham, Warwick, Howard, Conway, Kendal, Richmond, etc and these are all castles.....Wharfedale had names such as Airedale, Dovedale, Chevin, Linton, Glendale which are places in Yorkshire. Tannoy also had some place names, with Edinburgh, Balmoral, Devon, Cheviot. Tannoy also had the Planet Series: Jupiter, Saturn, & Venus, with the Mercury becoming very popular.

Quote:
As we are now talking on correct forum I like to propose new thread about nice amplifiers made between 60´s to early 90´s. They may have some historical meaning... but not necessarily so. Good, reliable performance is bonus. Good present day availability is must. 1974 John Curl JC2 or Beveridge amplifiers would be nice... but easy to source as original Bugatti camshafts.

Quads have already been discussed here... so is it reasonable to omit them now. So... Tim, if you have any additional ideas... let us know and open new thread.

Best Regards

Kimmo

PS maybe these nice amps should have something different than mainstream amps of their vintage do present


No problems...there are plenty of UK and US designs from this era....some names people will recognise, simply due to the longevity and/or reliability and/or serviceability of some brands. But many "forgotten brands" are now "museum pieces" and with little documentation available with which to restore them (even if they are valve, with simple circuits).

Feel free to make a first posting, as I'll be away for a few days, attending a hi-fi show in UK.
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Tim

(I used to work for KEF from 1988-1995 - you can see my "profile" here: http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info/speakertalk/viewtopic.php?t=1706)
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