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What should be my next pair of Kefs?
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proffski
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

geoffwood wrote:
I disagree. It is possible to be largely objective in these matters, not totally subjective. And yes, ADAMs, Genelecs, JBLs, etc can sound like wasps stinging you in the ear. geoff


Hmm, all loudspeakers are a compromise.

Efficiency Vs colouration, bandwidth, distortion, and so on.
Modern Spendorís, ATC, PMC, Wilson Benesch and Wilson Audio, etc, etc, etc... All make superb loudspeakers.

Yet the nearest I have in my opinion heard to date are the top end Meridian system and by far the LEAST coloured the Quad 2905s (two pairs) being driven by dual Musical Fidelity KW1 amplifiers.

I remember my first listening to the Tannoy Ardenís via Amcron DC300s, awesome, sure the Tannoys were very coloured but the immediacy of the sound, the sheer get up and go totally overrided the obvious faults in the directional treble and mid range aberrations.

Same with the Tannoy Westminster, so obviously flawed in the critical speech area yet totally forgivable because of the dynamic range, magnificent.

Again, the KEF Reference 4s via a Krell SA100, never sounded loud with whatever the source, yet when you tried to speak you realised that the sound was modulating the air in your lungs, awesome!

I have yet to listen to giants like Wilson Grand Slam or their latest equivalents, but if we must talk colouration or an almost absence of it let us not fool ourselves.
The new Quads driven properly are superb; we must not forget the Martin Loganís either, no box and almost no colouration.
Yet you will sacrifice maximum SPLs and total LF extension in the average room, this speaker thing is a never ending minefield folks and I love it!
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terry
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Colouration Reply with quote

Agreed Proffski

All speakers are coloured and we all have different capabilities with respect to hearing.

All rooms are different, and source components, amplifiers, supports, power supplies and yes even cables and what is in the room adds to the complexity and the sound.

We also play recorded music which has has had all manner of things done to it during and after the recoding session and in a studio or room or hall with unknown acoustic qualities.

The electronically manipulated recording is then 'fixed' on vinyl or a CD or on some other medium with all the limitations of that process and of the medium and the recording format.

Realistically we don't know what we should be looking for when we listen to music on our system other than satisfaction from the experience.

My system would, I am sure, not provide some of the members of this forum with a satisfying listening experience simply because these members would expect a different experience when playing back recorded music. I am sure that conversely I would fall asleep listening to some members systems. Very Happy
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proffski
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Colouration Reply with quote

So sadly true!

Compression which was mainly prevalent in popular music is creeping into the classical format as well. There must be many mixing engineers out there who have little idea as to how real music should sound like as they are catering for the lowest common denominator... (contemporary pop).

As long as we have the likes of Telarc and Opus who still take pride in the product then the amount of reference recordings abounds for those who care.

I regularly go to classical concerts in order to have some sort of reference in the old brain box, as much as I like late 60s & early 70s pop, live amplified concerts do not count!

I once remember a salesman at a Naim Audio open day many years ago dropping a right clanger, shame that the late Julian Vereker was not in earshot.

We had just had a demonstration of the Linn Kan and Isobaric with the Sondek with of course Naim amplification, remember that in those days Naim did not make loudspeakers and Linn did not make amplifiers.
Anyway, I asked the salesman as to what he used as a live reference, now he thought that he was being so very clever. He said...

ďI do not need a live reference as I have a Naim system!Ē Well, we just smiled and walked away.

Until one has heard the swell and level of massed strings, the wash of energy as a 32 foot note from an organ caresses your body, or the voice of a soprano, baritone or bass projects across an auditorium, or how a solo instrument hangs and images amongst and over the rest of the orchestra than one has no idea as to what a Hi-Fi should sound like or even approximate the real thing.

The sheer energy and dynamic range of a full brass band is another example, the utter acoustic power would give the average domestic setup a bad inferiority complex indeed!
Anyway, I digress and am in great danger of changing the thread of this topic, apologies for the short rant but I did enjoy it! Smile
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terry
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reality Reply with quote

I think that it is impossible to match the reality of a live orchestral concert in a home situation with any HiFi system.

You are right about the sound of an organ. I remember standing just inside York Minster Cathedral open mouthed at the sound. I had entered the Minster just at the point when the organ was spitting out a frequency which could be counted. This was before the most recent rebuild. I have no idea what it sounds like now.

Striving for something like that - which cannot be achieved at home - would be a frustrating and a very expensive exercise.
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proffski
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:33 am    Post subject: Re: Reality Reply with quote

Do you think we should start a new thread here? Smile

In Gloucester cathedral they have barred the use of the lowest organ stop because of structural damage being done to the ancient building, but I think it may possibly have been used for a few special occasions. Shocked
http://www.gloucestercathedral.org.uk/index.php?page=the-organ


I have also witnessed the huge main door door in Tewkesbury Abbey being swung open when one of the organs was in the rumble mode, stunning! Shocked http://www.tewkesburyabbey.org.uk/morg.htm

Hearing Saint-SaŽns 3rd organ symphony at the Royal Festival Hall was almost frightening, more like a secret acoustic weapon of mass destruction, but did we ever enjoy it.
http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/organinfo/

I must calculate the acoustic watts generated one of these days... Confused
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Gary
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

proffski wrote:
.... ultrasonic razor blades with the dispersion of a laser beam and no bass.


Excellent description. Can I use that quote? Smile
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proffski
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course! Very Happy
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Parts
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of my fave demo'd systems was the PMC BB5 XB5 pairing with full Bryston active package at nearly £40k, absolutely superb bass and percussion performance, superb.
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proffski
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parts wrote:
One of my fave demo'd systems was the PMC BB5 XB5 pairing with full Bryston active package at nearly £40k, absolutely superb bass and percussion performance, superb.


Yup, I heard them a few times, but I am a bit drunk at the moment and confused.
So forgive my incoherence.

I think I heard them being used with Plinius amplifiers from NZ...

This is where it all goes so wrong in theory.
How come that these Labyrinth or TL or whatever the current fashion tends to call them, dismiss the bass from such designs, yet PMCs sound so bloody accurate in the bass region, mighty and amazing then?

Somehow they tend to load almost any room so damned well, and in larger rooms forget the graphs, feel real bass...
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roberte
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:13 pm    Post subject: new KEFs - kind of Reply with quote

Well as it turned out my next pair of Kefs are:

JR149s

Speakers I really wanted way back when they were new, but couldn't afford.

Picked up a pair locally and they are really rather good sounding.
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proffski
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: new KEFs - kind of Reply with quote

roberte wrote:
Well as it turned out my next pair of Kefs are:

JR149s

Speakers I really wanted way back when they were new, but couldn't afford. Picked up a pair locally and they are really rather good sounding.


Congratulations, some people have all the luck!
What condition are they in and is the foam grille still ok?
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roberte
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foam has long since gone and they have been used as a pot/candle stand at some point - nothing serious though.

Functionally they seem fine; got them playing now.

Given that the Kefkits use the same mid and tweeter I do find the top just a little grainy in comparison. I think they may have been out of use for a while and I gather there is a variable resistor in the cross-over to adjust the treble; may need to investigate that further. Maybe that they'd sound better with a new foam grill as well.

I also need to sit them on some stands as they are a fair bit too high at present.
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Ragnar
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

... and even if the systems with turntables or CD players, amplifiers and loud speakers (and cables, plugs and soldering materials) were absolutely neutral and true, the music would still be biased.

I dare to say that much of the music we listen to is arranged and produced to be at its best in a mainstream boombox, or something like it.

I have a great collection of music that i like to listen to. But gradually, as I have increased the quality of my system, the size of my collection has decreased. Bass overemphasized, sharp highs, etc. etc all done in the intenstions that it should sound well in ANY system. And sounds like accoustic Viagra in any decent sound system. But sounds OK in the kitchen radio. and therefore sells more.


Ragnar
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Record:
KEF C10's (1986-now)
KEF C80's (1987-2007)
KEF Reference 105's (2006-2006)
KEF Reference 104/2's (2006-2007)
KEF Reference 107's (2007-now)
KEF Reference Two (2007 -now)
KEF Reference Four (2010 -now)
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proffski
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not here I hasten to add.
I only purchase as it happens the likes of "Opus 3" recordings.
Listen to the Eric Bibb -
One is their philosophy of recording, search their website!
http://www.opus3records.com/blues.html
Telarc sometimes as well as the flegling http://www.isomike.com/
I have no time for compressed, mutilated and I hate to say it "software"!
Eric Bibb and Needed Time

SACD 19421 SACD / hybrid
LP 19401 Spirit & The Blues

Holographic, 3D, sensational recording and the vintage KEFs do indeed pay good homage! If it is not on Opus forget it!
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-Winston Churchill
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Ragnar
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proffski wrote:
Not here I hasten to add.
I only purchase as it happens the likes of "Opus 3" recordings.
Listen to the Eric Bibb -
One is their philosophy of recording, search their website!
http://www.opus3records.com/blues.html
Telarc sometimes as well as the flegling http://www.isomike.com/
I have no time for compressed, mutilated and I hate to say it "software"!
Eric Bibb and Needed Time

SACD 19421 SACD / hybrid
LP 19401 Spirit & The Blues

Holographic, 3D, sensational recording and the vintage KEFs do indeed pay good homage! If it is not on Opus forget it!


Well, then we agree. The better the system, and the speakers in particular, the smaller the collection of music worthwhile listening to.

I passed an open door of a TV/surround sound store closing down in Tampa during a recent trip, and stepped inside. I found a Monster Audio recording "Giving it up" with Al Jarreau and George Benson for 2 dollars ! It contained a HD Surround Sound DVD besides the CD. I have enjoyed it for several hours. But it is receordings of that calibre that are on the player.

Ragnar
_________________
Record:
KEF C10's (1986-now)
KEF C80's (1987-2007)
KEF Reference 105's (2006-2006)
KEF Reference 104/2's (2006-2007)
KEF Reference 107's (2007-now)
KEF Reference Two (2007 -now)
KEF Reference Four (2010 -now)
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