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proffski
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: before BBC type speakers became famous and available... Reply with quote

What is "Your" reference?
Mine is live classical concerts, you know then as to how unadulterated voices and instruments sound.
Without a true to life "Reference" any comment or comparison is meaningless.
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speakerguru
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: before BBC type speakers became famous and available... Reply with quote

proffski wrote:
What is "Your" reference?
Mine is live classical concerts, you know then as to how unadulterated voices and instruments sound.
Without a true to life "Reference" any comment or comparison is meaningless.


+1
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iso
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: reference Reply with quote

It is true that we can hear true "reference" live... but there is no way to feed it unprosessed to our audio system.

The closest we can get to true reference is use original master tapes... but these have already been prosessed by hall acoustics, microphones, microphone amplifiers etc. When, month ago, I was in classical concert, I made remark that on first part of the concert acoustics were truly fine for Debussy orchestral works. The second part of the concert consists Ravels orchestration for Pictures of Exhibition, and the acoustics were not so fawourable for this work. I suppose bigger band and different locations for stringed instruments, brass and woodwinds were not perfect fit for these acoustics.

It is possible to know how real life "reference" should sound...but there is no way to know if our recording is true to this sound.

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Kimmo
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proffski
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: reference Reply with quote

I meant regular live classical concerts as well as jazz and other where electronics are not used for the augmentation of sound levels.
A good live performance of the human voice, piano and violin for example.
Sound reproduction in the home will always be a compromise, no matter how good the kit.
The essential thing about the ‘reference’ is having a reliable memory, not always perfect in my case and sometime flawed, hence the need for regular attendance.
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iso
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Sound reproduction in the home will always be a compromise.. Reply with quote

This is what I did mean with reference. When recording has been made, the producer most likely will like some kind of balance when the mixing is made. Maybe add some artifical echo. Real soundstage does not actually exists, it has been created during mixing and is in most cases 100% artifical, even then it can sound natural... or not. This means that we can only think that this recording sounds fine or maybe even natural. But if we want reproduce it correctly, mixing studio is the only place we can do it. We can compare recording to true life reference, but this comparison is quite meaningless as we do not know what we are comparing.

I think that it has been been pointed out that person can remember sound image about 5 seconds. I do not agree this. I think that experienced audiophile can make quite valid decissions between samples within few minutes. I tried different op-amps in CD player few years ago and this seemed work nicely, when op-amp sockets were used. One can also remember how guitar or oboe should sound for years, but how valid comparisons might be within week or two, I do not know. My hearing and memory are compromised too, but this is all I have...

It is also quite difficult to tell why something sounds as it does. When you play one speaker with 5 different power amplifiers, you will most likely have 3-5 different results due to the amp-speaker interface. Interestig question is, which result is true to the speaker? I think that there are so many open questions in the field of audio, that educated quess is needed quite often. This makes audio also so interesting, newerending journey.

I hope that we can agree this, and salute all pioneeres of the HiFi.

Best Regards

Kimmo
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audiolabtower
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: before BBC type speakers became famous and available... Reply with quote

proffski wrote:
What is "Your" reference?
Mine is live classical concerts, you know then as to how unadulterated voices and instruments sound.
Without a true to life "Reference" any comment or comparison is meaningless.


+2

Most reviews nowadays consist of regurgitating the manufacturers marketing blurb and then listening to a few (studio processed) cd tracks without even checking any specifications, if specs are even given! Very convenient for those companies who want to foist cheap tat at expensive prices on a gulible public in a constant round of upgrading. Just one of the reasons hi-fi has declined from a mass market business to niche insignificance the last decade or so.
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audiolabtower
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Sound reproduction in the home will always be a compromi Reply with quote

iso wrote:
the producer most likely will like some kind of balance when the mixing is made. Maybe add some artifical echo. Real soundstage does not actually exists, it has been created during mixing and is in most cases 100% artifical, even then it can sound natural...


True, but the best natural recordings hide this artificiality and give a view of the performance that can fool you to believe you are there in the concert hall.... the difference between good and bad recordings, good and bad speakers, good and bad amps, etc etc. You can't judge good speakers with bad recordings (unless wanting to discover where the recordings went wrong which is why the BBC designed their own speakers in the first place). But the only reference is the live sound, everything else is personal opinion and you end up with JBL L100s Smile
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iso
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:43 am    Post subject: You can't judge good speakers with bad recordings Reply with quote

You can't judge anything with bad recordings and the listening experience is always personal opinion, it does not matter if you are listening BC1 or L100. The real trouble is how to find good recordings you want to listen. Audiophile recordings are often recorded using correct methods, but we do not know exactly how the producer wanted them to sound either.

Maybe we shoud be more active on our Records for Kef speakers forum...

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Kimmo
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proffski
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: You can't judge good speakers with bad recordings Reply with quote

I think we are missing the point here.

I never referred to "recorded" material as a reference, never had and never ever will!
My reference is live instruments, never amplified or augmented by electronic means.

Forget master tapes and the digital domain no matter how 'perfect'.

I am talking live strings, piano, tympani, woodwind, brass...

Human voice, both male and female will tell you a lot about your loudspeakers… BUT only if you know what all this sounds like LIVE and not off master tape and through electronics and some transducers no matter how good! Even though I do go to concerts for my sins where amplified music is the norm I would never use that as a reference, and these days it takes a week for my ears to recover.
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iso
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: I think we are missing the point here. Reply with quote

Maybe we have missed point or two... and did find Catch 22...

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Kimmo
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RGBE
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Sound reproduction in the home will always be a compromi Reply with quote

iso wrote:
This is what I did mean with reference. When recording has been made, the producer most likely will like some kind of balance when the mixing is made............


But, what speakers is the producer using for mixing and balancing? The sound difference, tonal balance, extension, etc. of speakers, even very good ones, is so big that I think they are the main deciding factor at the time of editing and mixing music.
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proffski
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Sound reproduction in the home will always be a compromi Reply with quote

Mixing desks are the work of Satan for the aurally challenged!
I have always gone for the simplest and most direct path when it comes to “Hi-Fi”.

The mangling process encountered in mixing desks is mainly the combination of mono recordings “mixed”.

I follow the philosophy of people like Opus3 records, below is a link for your perusal and education.

Link: http://www.opus3records.com/phil.html
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audiolabtower
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point is a listener with wide experience of live sound can tell the difference between good or bad recordings... or speakers. An L100 may sound exciting and dynamic on pop mixes but it can never convince you are in a concert hall listening to an real orchestra for people with that experience under their belt.

The BBC monitors were developed with feedback from producers listening to the live sound and moving straight into the control room, and enabled them to improve their mic techniques - in the 70s and 80s Radio 3 sound was generally accepted to be the most natural around and often better than many LPs. No other speaker manufacturer had a symphony orchestra on hand for development. Kef had so many top speakers over the years because of those links and cross fertilisation, but trod their own commercial path because the BBC way was hardly applicable to volume mass production and low cost.
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iso
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Crossover Reply with quote

iso wrote:
Actually quite many classic speakers used quite simple crossovers. JBL L100 was 3 way design and used 1 cap in series to LE5 mid and 1 cap in series to LE25 tweeter.

AR used more sophisticated crossovers. I am doing AR-2ax refurbishment now. There are series caps for both tweeter and midrange. Series coil was also used for the woofer. There is also interesting feature in the AR midrange. Front cavity of the midrange is stuffed full of glassfibre... I suppose this was used to aid naturall roll of caracteristics of midrange driver.


You should note that I have not said anything about sound quality of these speakers. I referred these as classics due being quite widely used. They share simple crossover design of 60´s, Kef also used 6dB topoloqy on early crossovers. You may also note that more sophisticated AR crossover was joke, like Audiolabtowers original joke.

It would be interesting if 2ax or L100 models can be compared to Kef bookself models like K2, Duette or Celeste... or higher profiled K1 or Concerto models of the same era. They may be also slightly compromised compared to more recent designs.

Best Regards

Kimmo
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proffski
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

audiolabtower wrote:
The point is a listener with wide experience of live sound can tell the difference between good or bad recordings... or speakers. An L100 may sound exciting and dynamic on pop mixes but it can never convince you are in a concert hall listening to an real orchestra for people with that experience under their belt.

The BBC monitors were developed with feedback from producers listening to the live sound and moving straight into the control room, and enabled them to improve their mic techniques - in the 70s and 80s Radio 3 sound was generally accepted to be the most natural around and often better than many LPs. No other speaker manufacturer had a symphony orchestra on hand for development. Kef had so many top speakers over the years because of those links and cross fertilisation, but trod their own commercial path because the BBC way was hardly applicable to volume mass production and low cost.


Words of wisdom!
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