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Russ Andrews crossover design
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iso
Senior Contributor 200+


Joined: 29 Aug 2011
Posts: 215
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proffski wrote:
Words of wisdom!


Please, accept my apologize for not understanding British manners and way of thinking. My ability to express my ideas in English is also limited.

I do understand that this forum is dedicated mostly for Kef related issues. I do find jokes like the one about Russ Andrews crossover design to be fine, if there are no important issues to discuss. When I tried to open conversation about difficulties associated analyzing quality of reproduced sound, only response seems to be comments about how bad the US speakers are, how everything has been invented in the BBC and how stupid it is to use anything else than acoustic music as reference. At least it felt like this.

I do find it a bit narrow minded to think that everything, worth to know, has been invented in the BBC or Kef. At least all mighty BBC has been unable to send man on the moon, like Americans did.

I have enjoyed listening several types of music and audio equipment. There are quite many persons who will listen mostly amplified music. I do find this perfectly OK, but should their listening experience to be ignored if they do not want to listen the absolute reference?

I have found this discussion a bit hostile in recent days, even we all should be on the same side. I did find it also quite odd when there was nobody on this forum, who would salute all the pioneers of the HiFi, when I proposed it.

Best Regards

Kimmo
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proffski
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Joined: 22 Aug 2003
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Location: Tewkesbury UK

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies if you feel that we or I especially, have come over as hostile.
I can assure you that it was never my intent.

Try and understand that people will not change their opinions going back as in my case formed in the lated-1960s... I’d be lying if I said that I did not find most USA loudspeakers coloured and imperfect. Efficient, dynamic yes but flawed nevertheless.

I feel the same way about loudspeakers like the big Tannoy’s, they will blow your socks off and thrill you with their efficiency and dynamic range; I had a pair of Arden’s. Yet they were coloured. I miss them.

America produces some extraordinary amazing transducers, and I would love to own them.
You only have to go and visit ‘Stereophile’ and look at past and present tests and appraisals…

Please do not leave disheartened about different views, my reference will be a soprano live on a stage for example, never a recording.

As for the space race, many of the components were made in the UK and Europe not the USA alone.

Now come on back aboard to the Asylum and let us talk loudspeakers, eh?
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iso
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Joined: 29 Aug 2011
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Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This seems fair enough...

I newer expected that anyone who has involved in HiFi for long time, will change their opinions at once. However, I do think that when discussing about audio related issues, it is possible to learn something and this might change opinions on long term basis. At least this has happened to me. This is why I am asking time to time questions which might look odd or even stupid, but I like to learn something new.

I do have similar observations about Tannoys. I do have pair of LRM:s which was compact and used 12" 3149 drive unit, they are colored, but presence and tympani rolls are quite convincing. I bought Goodmans Axiom 201´s few days ago. I do not expect them to perfect either, but it would be nice to know how they will perform.

Few years ago I did not understand why in the world anyone will be interested in old solid state gear. Now I have bought Quad 240, Harman Kardon Citation 11,12,15 set. They might not be the best amplifiers on the earth, but especially Citation 12 was positive surprise. Even circuit topology is from late 60´s and very basic.

As you mentioned Streophile, it would also be nice if they will include more their classic HiFi reviews on their site. It seem odd how little there is online information about HK Citations, Goodmans Axioms, Rogers and Spendor gear.

I have not heard AR or JBL gear since early 80´s, but I hope that when I will meet old friend, they will be fine. I have got tired to even try to get everything 100% perfect, as this is impossible. Good as you can get must be enough.

Best Regards

Kimmo
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audiolabtower
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Believe me, nothing hostile, just a discussion about various speaker philosophies. The impression from other countries might be different but here the BBC invented the "British Sound" which changed the whole speaker industry afterwards here... and abroad to an extent. It really was just the Quad Electrostatic sound from a box easier to accommodate at home or small studio. For 20 or more years other (even famous) designers had a BC1 handy to try and emulate the midrange performance. Kef actually started the Reference series with the 104 as their competitor to try and steal the review crown. Before we had all manner of strange multiway designs with units spread all over wide baffles in random horizontal or diagonal or mirror image arrangements. After designers went more for 2 way (at least in the midrange) vertical in line configuration, higher slope crossovers in minimal width baffles to get a good image, naturally with variations in the bass to try and get louder with more power handling.

This is just my personal view of watching the trends since the early 70s and nobody need agree. But for me, after a lifetime of going to classical concerts my 105s in the main system and BC1s in the second system still give me "the closest approach to the original sound" compared to virtually everything I've heard before or since.
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iso
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

proffski wrote:
As for the space race, many of the components were made in the UK and Europe not the USA alone.


Proffskis comment about space race explains how things usually go. There has been only some gigantic companies like Philips, RCA, GE and Matsuhita who had been able to construct some basic products using their own research and components. Most products are actually collaboration of several companies.

I have found that difference between BBC style and Tannoy/JBL style approach has been like taking you to concert hall or taking concert hall to your living room. Both have their strong and low points. It is ones personal opinion which one he prefers, I like both of them. There must be also something between these extreme points...

As far as I understand, Tannoys were also quite popular in recording studios and therefore important part of the British Sound?

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Kimmo
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RGBE
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the most intriguing points of audio reproduction is the individual tolerance to sound coloration.

Some people seem to be inmune to astonishing degrees of it. They listen happily to music honking badly, or seemingly coming from a dustbin, without experimenting the slightest disturbance and believing firmly that it is the way it should sound!

Once I played a Bach chelo sonata to a relative of mine, chelo professor, first through my own speakers: KEF B139, B110, Celestion HF1300, HF2000 in 250 liters marble corner enclosures, and then through some BOSE 901, that I was evaluating for a friend. He listened attentively to my speakers, but when I switched to the BOSE... he burst laughing! Well, honestly, the BOSE perhaps were not so colored... but the sudden change was too much for him.
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audiolabtower
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RGBE wrote:
the BOSE perhaps were not so colored....


Yes they were Wink Wink Wink
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iso
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Coloration Reply with quote

Coloration is something you usually get used to. When you hear something better or worse, you will most likely note coloration.

During my Cantata rebuild 2 years ago, Colin mentioned that honkiness of B110 was never 100% cured. I considered that nasality was not major problem with Cantatas. Most often I did not even think about nasality during rebuild. I was bothered only when listening Stan Getz bossa nova Verve-recordings. His saxophone sound was clearly too nasal.

When I started using ATC:s again in my main system, nasality disappeared and Cantatas shortcomings were 100% clear. Cantatas were slightly nasal here, slightly honky there and clearly with Stan Getz. I have now used Cantatas with Quad 240 to produce TV sound and nasality/honkiness seems cause no trouble at all?

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Kimmo
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proffski
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Coloration Reply with quote

You may be surprised as to how good the B110 can sound when loaded into a short appropriate labyrynth with a suitable crossover... Smile
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man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
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iso
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Joined: 29 Aug 2011
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Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Coloration Reply with quote

proffski wrote:
loaded into a short appropriate labyrynth with a suitable crossover... Smile


Quite many perfectly good midrange drivers like B110, JBL LE5 and ATC SM75-150 need equalization for flat response. It is funny to note that SM75-150 has performed quite well with passive 380 hz crossovers, even it do have fs at 320 hz.

It is also funny to note how sometimes small amplitude variation seems to have almost no effect to sound quality. During Cantata rebuild, I tried how +2dB-flat-2dB midrange switching affected balance of the speakers, as -2dB mid setting was recommended. I preferred flat position, even I did not find that this had too much effect. This makes me wonder how usefull are 0,5 dB adjustments used sometimes.

However, when I changed power amplifier to other one, character of the sound did change quite much more. Different amplifiers seems to have also different colourations. Source to pre amp to power amp to speaker
interface makes things even more complicated.

Reducing inside cabinet reflections is most likely very efective way to reduce colouration. TL and labyrinth constructions are most likely very good designs in this respect. I do have pair of B110/SP1057 and T27:s reserved for CS1´s... is there something better to be made with these drive units?

Best Regards

Kimmo
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TL 200
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://rssconsultancy.co.uk/article85b.pdf
This pdf contains a TL design originally for b110 and t27. Here they use another woofer but with some calculations you must be able to build them, not a difficult enclosure.
Good luck, Bert
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