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Benefits of changing internal wiring ?

 
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suffolk2
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Location: Suffolk,England

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:30 pm    Post subject: Benefits of changing internal wiring ? Reply with quote

Will it improve the sound to change the internal wires to a fatter
and higher grade wire ?

Contemplating changing the wires in my calindas.

Would it "open" up the sound a little ?

If so what grade wire do i need to buy ?

Thks
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proffski
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Benefits of changing internal wiring ? Reply with quote

I did it to my 104s because it was the trend. However, do you honestly think that a few inches of 'different' coppere wire will make any diffrence?

The non linearities in the capacitors for example will produce more artefacts that can be measured... Ho hum...
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ColinR
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you've good wiring between your amplifier output stage and binding posts or whatever, then use "man sized" wire between it and your speakers, the only weak point is the 9"-15" from your speaker input terminals to the crossover where nearly all of the input power is dissipated.

Claims about total requires are down to the Zeeman Effect, changes in cable L, C & Rs and the psychology behind spending loads of time and money on such a facile project.

Go and spend some money on vinyl or a CD, bearing in mind the wires in the mixing desk was the thinnest gauge possible and the original signal went through miles of it.
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Parts
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most companies, for example Kef and Tannoy, now specify decent internal wiring.
Tannoy have made recent internal wiring changes to the prestige range also, why would they go to the expence of changing already decent after market internal wiring with another brand if there were not percieved differences ?

I cannot imagine such companies doing this for no benefit.

I myself have found improvements re-wiring plenty of speakers, inc Kef Reference models and such.

My current reference models use Chord internal wiring, I have also had good results with Audioquest and with solid core such as DNM. I believe Isolda by Townsend is a good choice also ?

Some of the above can be difficult to fit, in particular stiff cables with tweeters, and the need for cable support and shunting heat away from solder points.

I definitely feel there were improvements to treble and mid, with better bass definition, seemed quicker too ? I think another benefit to re-wiring is the de-soldering and creating new solder joints.

I think even something as basic as Van Damme with silver solder makes an improvement on old speakers. (I also prefer re-wiring Eltax cheapo's and the like with Cable Talk)

Upgrading the internal wiring can cost little or much depending on preference, but its fun and if carefull can be reversed if no improvement is heard.
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proffski
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have absolutely no problem with manufacturers using decent cable in their wares, even though it is only a few tens of centimetres...
It helps sell their product, and if this is what the punter wants...
On the other hand I'd be seriously pi**ed off if my new KEF MUONS costing £70,000 were using Maplin bell wire for the internal plumbing!
Swings and roundabouts, chalk and cheese. Pay your money and hope that you can hear the difference.

Do not get me wrong, some of my creations have some exotic cables in their internals, kings new clothes...

Above all enjoy the hobby, enjoy the original KEFs!
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IsakAlexander
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will use Nordost 2Flat cable. It`s easy to solder to the original dn12 crossover and even if it does not improve the sound, it will give a good "psykoaucoustic" effect.. Smile
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Gary
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I upgraded the wiring in my Tangent RS8's from thin wire to regular wire (14 gauge, IIRC). It was a BIG improvement.

Note you will be changing the sound.... hopefully for the better.
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Gary
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of it this way... you have "thick" cables from your amp to your speakers. Why not the same cable from your crossover to your drivers?

Of course, to call me logical is like saying Ronald McDonald is a snappy dresser.......... Wink
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suffolk2
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logically speaking, does it not make sense that the less resistance to
the signal path [ thicker wires ], the better the sound quality ?

I think if you open up speakers made in the 70s and current models
you should find that the internal wires are thicker spec.

So, I do not think it's all hype, even if a few thinks it's to do
with marketing ? Very Happy
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ColinR
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Logically speaking, does it not make sense that the less resistance to the signal path [ thicker wires ], the better the sound quality ?


Got a megabuck multimeter that can measure the difference between 30" of 14 or 16 AWG steel wire and the same length of audiofool quality (passed near to David Price's backside) throbnasty megabuck cable that'll snap most terminals with it's weight?

Quote:
think if you open up speakers made in the 70s and current models you should find that the internal wires are thicker spec.


Bet they still design and construct speakers with the same cost models, the cable is cheaper beacuse it's made with child labour.

Quote:
So, I do not think it's all hype


Mmmm it is mostly marketing though.

Have a look at an AWG table of gauge versus resistance
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Parts
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Early KEF used standard mains flex, and supplied a table of cables with their speakers.

I guess a lot of equipment in the measuring department moved on since the sixties, though wether it caught up with HI FI is debatable.

Put it this way, equipment and physics/science say it should not be, though the ears here a difference, do you trust the machine or the ear ?

Both standard copper mains flex, and OFC and solid core of the same thickness may measure near identical but to the ear sound different, and not that many years back we did base our cable choices on the sort of charts KEF provided.
Now why do we measure clearer differences between cable types now compaired to 20 years ago ? And why did it take 20 years for equipment to become available to compair cable measurement ? Put it this way, Hi Fi News showed clear measured differences between various speaker cables of similar and disimilar construction during the mid 90's, yet we still have argument over Audiophool cable (I am not saying it is all better or worth the expence!) Around the same time manufacturers such as Kef and Tannoy started to discontinue using mains flex ?

Simple, small cable changes can make percieved changes to quality. I also think they can make the amps life easier or more difficult.

Point, one of my amplifiers clipping behavour changes when changing from VDH D-352 to Naim Nac5 , and both cables sound different. I would like the VDH cable to be better, after all it cost more and looks nicer, but the Cheaper Nac5 does a better job with this certain amp than the VDH (though the Nac5 has a poorer, rougher treble performance).

Do you think there is any difference in sound quality or measurement between steel wire or copper or OFC copper or silver plated copper or silver or carbon or solid core cable of similar gauge, and does this change with lengths of 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 metres, or indeed does the amplifier-speaker affect this ? What about insulation and skin affects ? Stranded cable diameter ? Hyperlitze ? lots of fine strands versus less thick strands ? Solid core and its affect on frequency over lengths of .5m ?

I myself think cables have an affect on performance, I have quite a varied selection and experience of cables, though I do not count this as being qualified, or as caring about cost or agreeing fancy audio cable is worth the money.

And I do not believe the internet hype regarding most manufacturers cables being from the RS catalogue, and am still quite happy to use Chord Signature AND Naim Nac5. As long as I get to enjoy listening to music.
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speakerguru
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parts wrote:
Early KEF used standard mains flex.......

To the best of my knowledge, KEF have never used or supplied "standard mains flex" with their speakers. In the 104, 104aB, 103 era, speakers were supplied with a heavy duty (thicker than bell wire) grey figure-of-eight twin flex terminated in 2-pin DIN speaker plugs. These were phased out as DIN speaker connectors were used less and less.
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Parts
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

speakerguru wrote:
Parts wrote:
Early KEF used standard mains flex.......

To the best of my knowledge, KEF have never used or supplied "standard mains flex" with their speakers. In the 104, 104aB, 103 era, speakers were supplied with a heavy duty (thicker than bell wire) grey figure-of-eight twin flex terminated in 2-pin DIN speaker plugs. These were phased out as DIN speaker connectors were used less and less.


Sorry I didn't make myself clear, I was thinking of the internal wiring of some early models.

The internal wiring of the Kef 107 head assembly lead out cable is one example (a black 3 core mains flex utilising the blue and brown), as is the wiring used for the T33 tweeters of the R105.4 and R107.

Of course not all the wiring was blue and brown mains flex, they also used orange, purple, black, green jacketed copper af the same gauge.

External speaker cable, I remember the heavy gauge figure 8 I got with the 105, and also KEF branded OFC cable which looked and sounded very similar to VAN DAMME or Klotz.

I have just remembered the internal cable Tannoy have used for the prestige range, Achrolink 6n, with 9n silver wire for the treble section.

On another note, Quad did use orange mains flex from B&Q at one of their demo's once, I cannot remember where the literature on this is, but it was also discussed on another forum during a discussion on cable.
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