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Rewiring the inside of a KEF 107, worth it?
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idf
Junior Contributor 10+


Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:32 am    Post subject: Rewiring the inside of a KEF 107, worth it? Reply with quote

Hey everyone,

I own a set of KEF 107's and 103.3's.

Recently I replaced the surrounds on my 107's and this forum was very helpful with guidance on the task, thanks.

My question surrounds rewiring. Why bother?

Let me explain my point by following the signal path:

First, a nice thick speaker cable connects to the terminals. But the second it crosses the terminals threshold, a thin little circular spade is sandwiched between 2 screws which is attached to a rather thin wire. This thin wire goes to the lower crossover (again attached with a thin spade) which is then distributed across a circuit board that is even thinner than the thin wire, into caps and inductors with non copper ends, etc.

From here more thin stainless steel spades to wires and onto the actual drivers, again spades and then an very thin wire into the actual driver itself where the wire spun around the voice coil is thinner than every part of the signal path so far.

So, long winded, but here is my point: why bother rewiring when all you will end up with is a point where the internal wiring will get very thin and you cant do anything about it?

Isn't this akin to having a 40 lane highway bottleneck into a 2 lane road when it reaches the woofer's voice coil?

This is my logic on the subject, but I'd like to hear what others think because I'm open to the rewiring job but as of now see no point.

Thanks!
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geoffwood
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Joined: 24 Sep 2009
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Location: Wellington, New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know if it's 'worth it', but mine was open so I did it anyway ! And it's not arduousy to open them anyway. Fortunately the terminals are standard-size (4.8mm) lugs.

You'll need to pull the existing wires , and possibly enlarge drill an additional hole for the thicker cables. Goop them up with hot-melt glue when routed.

As to whether there is an actual improvement, who knows - but at least psychologically you'll have that doubt removed Wink

geoff
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TL 200
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Joined: 27 Jul 2009
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Location: Emmer-Compascuum The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Isn't this akin to having a 40 lane highway bottleneck into a 2 lane road when it reaches the woofer's voice coil?


I think it's more like having a road full off trucks loaded with eggs: if everything is still in one piece at the arrival you will be happy Smile
So a wide and smooth road will be needed.
ie it's about getting the information as complete and easy as possible
to the speakers.
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ColinR
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Joined: 31 Jul 2004
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Location: Staffordshire

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.

KEF CAD/CAM designs included the (steel) wires in the modelling process Shocked .

What are you going to do with the PCB tracks, put lumps of melted silver on them to improve their conductivity too? Rolling Eyes
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TL 200
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think i misread and therefore misunderstood something here.
I thought this quote:Isn't this akin to having a 40 lane highway bottleneck into a 2 lane road when it reaches the woofer's voice coil? was about speakercable between amp and speaker.
Sorry Colin, if i stepped some toes, you shouted really loud. Wink
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ColinR
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sorry Colin, if i stepped some toes,


Very Happy How did you know that I've got big feet? Very Happy


The only rewire that is necessary in any speaker is to replace the piece of scrap between the input terminals and the crossover PCB(s) where >90% of the input power is lost with a similar gauge to that used in the speaker cable to that speaker, so losses only occur due to contact resistance.

No Zeeman effect, no LCR effects, no psychoacoustic effects and you'll still have some money left to buy some musical software Cool .

Ref. 107s used a decent gauge of wire internally, so don't mess about with them.
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geoffwood
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Location: Wellington, New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may well be sufficiently 'decent' gauge, but the wire is actually pretty thin. It has quite thick insulation on it though, which makes it appear thicker.

Not that I'm suggesting that the original wire is actually inadequate or flawed in any way.

geoff
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idf
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wire is rather thin, but the wire in the core of the speaker is much more so. So is the winding of the inductors.

It all has me wondering. Especially since for fun I wired my 107's from my amp to the binding posts with Romex cable (the stuff you wire your house with) and couldnt tell the slightest difference between it and my Linn cable.
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geoffwood
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless somebody has changed the laws of physics, you are unlikely to hear a difference unless the speaker cables are extremely long and/or thin, or have extreme capacitance or inductance (woven, or lump-loaded networks that some have - but that not a factor of the cable itself !).

geoff
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idf
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

geoffwood wrote:
Unless somebody has changed the laws of physics, you are unlikely to hear a difference unless the speaker cables are extremely long and/or thin, or have extreme capacitance or inductance (woven, or lump-loaded networks that some have - but that not a factor of the cable itself !).

geoff


Yes, I agree, so why are there multi thousand $$ cables out there? It just makes no sense. For example, this whole oxygen free 'feature' you read about is just another way of saying 'wire with ever so slightly less resistance' which is only a concern for very long cable runs where resistance builds up.
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TL 200
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Location: Emmer-Compascuum The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How did you know that I've got big feet?

Well you must have since you're not blown away yet by
"the Power of Kef" Laughing
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François
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Joined: 06 May 2009
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Location: Rennes, France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

idf wrote:
..I agree, so why are there multi thousand $$ cables out there?


That's an easy one : because there are thousand people to buy them. Razz

What about these $$ cables for powering your amp ? Some guys will spend money for replacing the 3 feet cable between their amp and the wall plug, do they intend to replace the 100 miles cable between their house and the power plant too ? I read serious reviews on glossy paper about these (no I didn't bought the magazine), they used words as "clarity", "improvement", "strongest", "transparence", etc, the usual dictionary.
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geoffwood
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Location: Wellington, New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mind is a powerful thing !

I remember having done an interconnect experiment where 'golden ears' could not discern the difference between commodity interconnects, $8000 interconnects, and UNSCREENED COATHANGER WIRE !!!

And another where huge differences were heard in 3 cables which were in fact the same one, untouched. Moving one's head a few inches can have measurable effects far greater than the most extreme audio enhancements through cables or gear.

geoff
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idf
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geoffwood wrote:
Moving one's head a few inches can have measurable effects far greater than the most extreme audio enhancements through cables or gear.



Moving a speaker can as well. The 107 is especially sensitive to this.

You guys ever see that Monster Cable demo years ago where there was an AB box where you would switch from one to the other?

I forget what the scheme was, a resistor or something, but the signal thru the monster cable was stronger and thus louder, but it had nothing to do with the cable.
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Parts
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rewired my 107 some years ago, with decent gauge Chord co cable which was what my main cable was anyway.

To be honest I thought it was better, these days I think what made that difference was probably no more than imagination and the fresh solder.

I am confident any decent OFC copper of sufficient gauge would suffice.
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